Dr Russ Kennedy (00:01.114)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the anxiety RX podcast. I am your host, Dr. Russell Kennedy, a medical doctor and neuroscientist who dealt with crippling anxiety for a very long time. And today I have with me, Kendra Fisher, and we talked a little bit in her podcast about a month ago and we had such a good time. thought, well, you got to come on the anxiety RX podcast Kendra. So how's it going?
Kendra Fisher (00:26.006)
It's going wonderful and you're stuck with me now. it's, it's how it goes. Trana. Hey, Trana. Hey, I'm not far from you. I spent a lot of time in Brampton, but only because we played a lot of hockey there. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (00:27.29)
yeah. No, no, it's Fellow, fellow Canadian Toronto here outside Toronto. I was born outside Toronto. I was born in Brampton.
There. Yep. Yes. Yep. For sure. For sure. So what's your background, Kendra?
Kendra Fisher (00:47.63)
Uh, partly Scottish. No. I, uh, I, I was going to, but then I was like, I don't actually know it all. I, it's, I have failed at the ancestry 23 or whatever it's called. My father was born in Scotland. My mother was born in Ottawa. So I, I mean, that's maybe, maybe that's it.
Dr Russ Kennedy (00:50.636)
You can start there. Nothing wrong with that.
Dr Russ Kennedy (01:00.1)
Really? My mother's from Glasgow, so it's like I know for sure. Yeah.
So you know you're gonna live to 106, you know? So we...
Dr Russ Kennedy (01:14.5)
The Scottish genes, man, like my mother, 91, she's had two hip replacements in the last four years. She's still fricking going. mean, you know, she's still doing it, you know, now she's still anxious, right? So that's the thing. You lived 106 and you know, if you're anxious every day, that's no fun. But, yeah.
Kendra Fisher (01:21.974)
I love it. love it. Yeah. As well. mean.
Kendra Fisher (01:30.292)
No, that's why I paused there and I was like, okay, hang on a second. But right now I'd be okay with it. Right now, like where I'm at today, I could do 106. I'd rather 105 because it's a multiple of three, but yeah. My background, so my background with anxiety is not quite as definitive as yours, only because I don't know as many medical terms as you. So I didn't...
Dr Russ Kennedy (01:36.12)
Okay, good.
So what's change with your anxiety? Okay. Or 108, that's the magic number, right?
Dr Russ Kennedy (01:58.222)
Okay.
Kendra Fisher (01:59.498)
I didn't get to carry all the fancy diagnosis, but diagnoses. But, yeah, I grew up small town, good family. I'm a hockey player and I'm a hockey player that wanted to play for team Canada. Goalie goalie there. mean, and right there, right? End of story. That explains a lot. But, yeah. So growing up, I, that was kind of always the dream team Canada. wanted to play in the Olympics and.
Dr Russ Kennedy (02:11.534)
You're goalie. Yep. Yep.
Dr Russ Kennedy (02:18.062)
Yep. Caretaker.
Kendra Fisher (02:29.256)
in my late teens, I got into a car accident and car accident, don't believe at all had anything to do with the cause of it, but I think it had to do with the period of time in my life where all of the sudden I couldn't be as active. I couldn't be as social. I couldn't be as engaged and that kind of very carefully built routine that was my athletic life, it got put on pause and gave me
the perfect storm to discover this, the beast within that was anxiety. yes, yes. And I tried to cope. I went to all the doctors. I did all the right things, quote unquote. Everybody told me how healthy I was. I tried to self-cope. I drank a lot to try to not.
Dr Russ Kennedy (03:05.198)
Yes.
Dr Russ Kennedy (03:09.112)
or alarm as I call it.
Kendra Fisher (03:27.842)
deal with it and that didn't work. And unfortunately, it kind of all came to a head. I was heading out to Team Canada tryouts in Calgary. And at that point, I just, I was a shadow of myself at best. And by the time I got out there, I would have been...
Dr Russ Kennedy (03:46.65)
How old were you, kinder, at time? How old were you at that time?
Kendra Fisher (03:55.774)
20ish? 20, yeah. 1920. Just before my 20th birthday. And... Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (04:02.148)
That's when it really got me too. I think that's when it hits a lot of us is, you know, kind of on the verge of maybe, you know, moving into adulthood, moving out of the house, all this kind of stuff, like all of the stuff just sort of came crashing in. And then, you know, you being a super achiever and me being a super achiever, we go into achievement to try and stave off our anxiety and it works sort of, you know, and then our brains tell us, Hey, this, you know, hyperactive looking after others overachievement thing.
Kendra Fisher (04:10.051)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (04:20.159)
absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah, yep.
Dr Russ Kennedy (04:31.266)
is the only thing that's helping you. And, you know, we just ride it till the wheels come off.
Kendra Fisher (04:36.194)
Yeah, and I did. I truly did. I mean, unfortunately, I got to a point, I got out to that camp and I just, I knew I wasn't gonna be able to hide it. And at that point, was the goal. That was the singular focus was how do I make sure nobody in Team Canada Hockey knows I'm falling apart inside? And the next day I met with the coaches and tried to explain to them what was going on again.
totally believing it was entirely physical, that the doctors and the specialists had just missed whatever the diagnosis was going to be. And it was going to be catastrophic and tragic. And yeah, I went to the coaches and tried to explain that something was up. And they asked me that day if it helped to know that I made Team Canada. I think they thought taking that pressure off me might be the answer. it certainly was memorable because
That's those are the words I it's well.
Dr Russ Kennedy (05:34.34)
Do think it might have made it worse in a way? Like I see people, you know, they get to the top of the mountain, like a lot of us, we look at the top of the mountain and we think if once I get there, I'll be okay. Cause I used to think when I was younger, because my dad had schizophrenia, right? Like my big fear in life was developing schizophrenia bipolar like my father.
Kendra Fisher (05:44.78)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (05:53.891)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (05:54.126)
So I had told myself in my early twenties, look, if you make it through med school, you don't have schizophrenia because people with, know, with, with schizophrenia, aren't going to make it through med school. It's going to be too taxing for them. But the trial by fire that I went through, and then when I finally got to be a doctor, my anxiety got worse. I was like, I made it.
Kendra Fisher (05:58.318)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (06:04.012)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (06:13.13)
Yeah, because now you had more information.
Dr Russ Kennedy (06:15.684)
You know, and the whole thing that I've thinking, if I make it to this point, if I get to the top of the hill, I've made it, I'm not mentally ill. then, being, you know, going through med school made me mentally ill. So that's why I ask about, know, when you reach that pinnacle, you know, there's nothing left to kind of buffer it anymore. When you're looking up at something and you think, okay, well, you know, once I get here, I'll be okay. And then you get there and you're not okay. The whole thing just crumbles.
Kendra Fisher (06:40.502)
Yeah. Well, and I wasn't. And I, my answer to that was that's, it's one of the hardest things I'm ever going to hear. Cause I quit right after they told me and I left team Canada. I flew home that night and went into the journey of finally receiving a diagnosis. then five years, the only time I left my apartment was to go see a psychologist or go to hockey. couldn't be alone. Couldn't, couldn't function, couldn't sleep, couldn't eat.
Dr Russ Kennedy (06:48.825)
Right.
Kendra Fisher (07:11.022)
And five years later realized that wasn't a life that was worth anything to me. And so it was kind of that moment. It was that moment of either I'm done, I give up, or there has to be a different way. And then began the journey of kind of learning how to cope. I mean, this is the...
Dr Russ Kennedy (07:16.494)
Worth living. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (07:28.89)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (07:38.69)
this is the paradox of where I'm at now because I've just gone through this whole other transition. But I learned to cope. I learned to cope quote unquote really well. I learned to cope well enough that for the past 14 years I've traveled the world sharing my story and helping others learn how to get through those moments and perhaps deal with the effects differently than they are currently.
Dr Russ Kennedy (07:44.026)
thriving, yeah.
Kendra Fisher (08:07.586)
I feel like I have to start this whole new like tour now around the epiphany. Yeah, that is like, you know what? There's this really cool reality beyond coping and it's called healing. And I mean, I've just arguably gone through one of the worst years of my life and I feel better than I've ever felt. And I don't like, that's such a cautious statement for me to make.
Dr Russ Kennedy (08:13.806)
Finding the way out. Yeah, for sure.
Dr Russ Kennedy (08:21.422)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (08:28.954)
and okay. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (08:34.116)
Sure, I get it, I get it, I get it. So what do you think has created this new Kendra?
Kendra Fisher (08:43.534)
I think that I had such a carefully constructed existence. Like when I learned to cope, I learned tools, I learned strategies, I learned resources. And don't get me wrong, I I credit that period of my life with keeping me here. you know, so I learned the necessity for movement and stay physically active. I learned that I need to do something mindful, meditative.
prayer, like whatever the modality is you wanna call it. I recognize how nutrition affects it, how sleep affects it. I can engage in CBT and talk therapy and trauma therapy and, and. I also had these kind of, this team of supports in place. I had my psychologist from the time I was 19 until unfortunately she passed a few years ago.
and I had a family doctor who understood the complexity of are we treating the anxiety today or are we treating an actual issue today? And she was so good with me. And I had my parents and some great people in my life who would hold me accountable when I wasn't the best person for the job. And
Dr Russ Kennedy (09:47.994)
There's a few of us out there.
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (10:11.844)
And what did that look like, Kendra? What did that look like holding you accountable?
Kendra Fisher (10:15.182)
I think I got to a place in my life where I gave people permission to not use kid gloves with me. I'm not somebody who, first off, I live with anxiety and I am somebody who can manipulate and lie to support and justify every excuse in the book. Like I...
Dr Russ Kennedy (10:22.874)
Mm.
Kendra Fisher (10:40.832)
We are masters. We are masters of being able to justify why I can't do it today or why I'm avoiding this thing or how it is this is going to be safe for me. And yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (10:52.352)
often just interrupt for a quick for a quick second. Often the anxiety anxiety people are quite smart. That's and in a way it makes it worse because you know, I love the David Goggins quote that says the mind has a tactical advantage over you, right? So it knows all your weak spots and you can't hide from it. And it will always sort of shove you into those little grooves of pain. And you just have to realize that that it's this is what it's going to do. And and when you're aware of it, and you can kind of see okay,
Kendra Fisher (10:57.548)
Yeah, yeah.
Of course.
Kendra Fisher (11:05.206)
Yeah.
No.
Kendra Fisher (11:13.546)
Certainly.
Dr Russ Kennedy (11:21.996)
If you have held things out, it's like, I know my brain is going to start coming up with, you know, I'm sick, I'm dying. I'm like, and then I can look at it now and just kind of laugh at it. Like, I know what's coming, you know, right? Like, I know what I, you know, I'm like, I feel this alarm in my system. My groove is to go into something's wrong with me. And now I can almost laugh at it because it's like, I know it's coming. Right. And you can get some power over it because you know, it's coming.
Kendra Fisher (11:30.584)
Yeah. Yeah, I know. Okay. Yeah.
Of course. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And so for me, mean, over the past couple of years, I had all of these, and I mean, along with my alarm, as you say, and my responses to that alarm,
You know, there were also some real fears. I was terrified of surgery. I was terrified of losing my parents. I was terrified. You know, I'm often faced with, I have a son who's a type one diabetic. you know, there's a lot of fear as a parent and the ability to navigate all of that. I mean, it was like one by one, the world was just flicking out those pillars and those foundations of like this carefully structured safety that I had created for myself and.
Dr Russ Kennedy (12:18.884)
Sure.
Kendra Fisher (12:34.44)
In the past year, unfortunately, I lost my father to dementia in Parkinson's, which was, I mean, multiple years of that. And it's a cruel, cruel illness. And I got to be there. My dad was my best friend. And I got to show up for him and I got to meet him where he was at.
Dr Russ Kennedy (12:43.694)
Yeah. Suffering. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (12:50.471)
it is.
Kendra Fisher (12:59.992)
That was such a wonderful lesson for me and it opened me in a way that I started to experience things a bit different because I was so used to controlling. I had to be the puppet master. I had to be able to be the chess master who was going to have all of the pieces in a way that I could tolerate. And I was very good at it. I was very effective at that.
but then I was diagnosed with endometriosis. My ability to move changed, my ability to work out the same changed, my ability to sleep, you know, as a first responder and as a parent of a diabetic, I'm waking up to alarms every night. And so, I mean, kind of one by one, then my psychologist is gone and then my doctor retires during COVID and I'm a person who has health and medical anxiety.
Dr Russ Kennedy (13:37.838)
Right?
Kendra Fisher (13:57.206)
working as a first responder during COVID, you know, like one by one, was just kind of like the world was just setting me down and pulling apart that safety system that I thought I had, that I thought I had control over. And ultimately...
Dr Russ Kennedy (14:12.504)
And you did to some extent, you know, and I think that's the illusion is, but it's exhausting. Like it's just so, it's so metabolically taxing that you never get a chance to rest. And then, you know, when you do rest, a lot of us anxious people get really more anxious when we're resting.
Kendra Fisher (14:16.384)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (14:22.766)
Entirely.
Dr Russ Kennedy (14:33.73)
is that's what I was thinking about this morning when I woke up because every morning I wake up with some kind of new thought and was like anxiety really skews your relationship to time. Because when you're in it, you're like, my god, you know, not only is time painful, and I would say this, you know, when I was going through the worst part of my anxiety, was it was just like every day hurt. wasn't just like I was boring. I was, you know, watching video games or you know, wasting my life away every day frickin hurt.
Kendra Fisher (14:44.635)
yeah.
Kendra Fisher (15:02.606)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (15:03.106)
So it was like, why, why am I having to go through this stage where everything and then time goes as well. This is the only time you have and it's hurting. So you get this really skewed look at how you perceive time. And then when it, and then when you, when the anxiety releases you, you kind of just kind of go, okay, well, I guess it's good though. You know, it's like, you don't really do anything about it when you have the resources to do something about it, because you're just so relieved it's gone.
Kendra Fisher (15:24.524)
Yeah. Yeah. No.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and you're right, the exhaustion. I mean, it's, it's honestly, and I, I often, when I'm sharing my story, I talk about a moment when I was learning yoga and I was learning mindfulness in yoga. And it was the first time that I had ever effectively stopped a panic attack. was, I was laying there at the start of class and it was always the worst part. Like everybody's like,
Dr Russ Kennedy (15:31.682)
at that, even for that, even for an hour.
Kendra Fisher (15:54.978)
You get into the room and they're like, okay, lay down on the mat, close your eyes, take some deep breaths. And I'm like, do you know how terrifying it is in my head? Like I'm not closing my eyes. You want me to be alone in here? And then like, I would plan my escape. Like I would set my mat up so I had a clear path to the door if I needed to leave, if a panic attack started coming, if I got out. And I remember the first time it happened, it was, and I'm talking, this was like seven or eight years after I was diagnosed. So I was in that, like the five year period of really learning
tools differently. And I started to panic and I started to engage a breathwork technique unknowingly. I, this point, because I had been practicing when I wasn't in crisis, it came to me, it was available to me. And my panic attacks stopped and I just started bawling. Like I was like on this mat and the level of relief was so incredible. But in that moment I recognized
Dr Russ Kennedy (16:26.041)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Russ Kennedy (16:40.696)
Right.
Kendra Fisher (16:54.446)
how hard I had been fighting physically for so long and mentally and emotionally. And my nervous system hated me. Like I was beyond fight or flight. I was in freeze and I was just like, I was living there. And it was such a, it was fleeting at the time. It was fleeting because I didn't have the ability to string a bunch of those together yet. But.
Dr Russ Kennedy (17:11.77)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (17:21.604)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (17:23.118)
I got a taste of it. I got like this little sample of like, wow, this is really what it's been doing to you. And so yeah, this year I just got to the point where I think, you know, following that, my father passed, I had to have a major surgery, which scared the hell out of me. And shortly thereafter, there was a nearly fatal accident.
Dr Russ Kennedy (17:27.214)
Yep, I get it.
Kendra Fisher (17:52.718)
involving my son and a support, I'm trying to be diplomatic here, somebody that was supposed to be administering, well, wasn't supposed to be administering medication who showed up and almost administered what would have been a fairly difficult dose to counter given he had already been dosed with his insulin minutes before that. you know, I just shut down.
Dr Russ Kennedy (17:59.726)
Mm.
Dr Russ Kennedy (18:13.05)
of insulin.
Right. Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (18:22.254)
I got to a place where it was like, I couldn't save my father. I had to have surgery. Now I have to recover. Now none of the things that I know to do to manage my anxiety and my pain and my discomfort are available to me. I don't drink anymore. don't, you know, there's no drugs, there's no substances. I can't go for a run. I can't go do yoga. I can't lift 10 pounds. I can't sleep comfortably.
Dr Russ Kennedy (18:33.7)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Russ Kennedy (18:47.674)
Right.
Kendra Fisher (18:50.636)
and then this happens with my son. Yeah, right? And this is a thing. And then there's my son. And then I'm just like, I can't, I just shut down. And it was the first moment where it was kind of like, was put in the place of, I think grief really led me to being able to experience, yeah, yeah. And it was just, it was gone. Like it was gone and it was complete. Like it was a month of like,
Dr Russ Kennedy (18:51.098)
Other than that, you're okay though.
Dr Russ Kennedy (18:56.952)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (19:09.614)
surrender is basically yeah i mean i think that's
Kendra Fisher (19:18.752)
sitting on my kitchen floor, recognizing I can't fight that hard every single day and sustain it. And by the way, you're not doing as good of a job as you think you are.
Dr Russ Kennedy (19:31.93)
Right. Yeah, it's like spinning plates, you know, and I just, and then light just gives you more plates because when you're younger, you can often balance this stuff before you have kids and that kind of thing. You can kind of go through life. still, you know, I remember times where, you know, I'd be horrendously anxious during the day. And then at night go out with my friends and feel just fine. Like, absolutely. And then I'd wake up the next morning with this horrendous, like every day, it was like Groundhog Day. I would feel it every day.
Kendra Fisher (19:40.002)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (19:51.832)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (19:57.388)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (19:58.412)
And a lot of it was just the illusion of being able to keep it all together because I was fairly competent at keeping things together. Right. you were like the superstar in that particular area, but I think after a while, after a while, you know, it's gonna, it's gonna break. Like something's going to happen where you just can't hold it together anymore. And there is a sense of surrender and peace in that, in that I don't have to, to, to spin these plates anymore because I can't.
Kendra Fisher (20:05.902)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (20:12.068)
Ha ha ha ha!
Kendra Fisher (20:27.372)
Yeah, yeah. And that was it, right? And I think that I had been gifted through grief and through, because there's also that piece, like what you were saying earlier about reaching that pinnacle. You I got to this place where I had an opportunity to play for Team Canada. I mean, as a female hockey player, that's the epitome. And I, you know, when I had to walk away from Team Canada gratefully,
Dr Russ Kennedy (20:47.416)
Right. Doesn't get any better than that.
Kendra Fisher (20:55.726)
I credit hockey for a lot of my survival and I was still able to play hockey, that was it. It was like this. My psychologist, my parents, it was very much, you're not going to lay down and die, so pick something. We don't care what it is, but pick something. You're not going to have nothing, no commitment. You need to stay engaged somehow in living. And hockey was it, that was all I could manage. And so I was very, very blessed and grateful I could still play at the highest level of hockey.
Dr Russ Kennedy (21:09.082)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (21:24.81)
other than Team Canada, but in the various leagues up to the PWHL. I was able to do that and I credit that for a lot. But when I left Team Canada and you know, fast forward 2010 when I started, well, in all honesty, it was a singular moment. Unfortunately, Darren Richardson, who is the daughter of Luke Richardson, who was in the NHL.
She was part of the U16 Team Ontario program. And I happened to be at the Ontario Women's Hockey Association's head office when the directors came back from her funeral. And at 14, she had taken her own life. And I just remember in that moment thinking, I'm part of the problem. Like I'm, this is, I'm part of the problem because my silence is, and to me, and that's not, I get it, that's my calling. But for me, what it felt like was very much,
Dr Russ Kennedy (22:02.17)
Hmm.
Right.
Dr Russ Kennedy (22:16.952)
Mm-hmm, sure, yeah, I get it.
Kendra Fisher (22:22.078)
here I am living with mental illness somewhat successfully at that point. And I'm ashamed to admit it. I'm embarrassed to admit it. It makes me feel minuscule. And I just, I in that moment felt called to not be quiet anymore, to share that, know what, there's a lot of us living with this and you can still have a great life. And this doesn't have to be
a sentence and that was when I started sharing my story and it just, was very...
it was very evident for me at that point that I had then kind of shifted that mentality to now I have to be the best at this. I have to be the best speaker. I have to be the best at managing my anxiety. And that caused so many more complexities, because then it's like, how do you be great all the time? Well, you don't.
Dr Russ Kennedy (23:21.282)
Of course.
Dr Russ Kennedy (23:25.763)
Right.
Kendra Fisher (23:27.136)
And then it's okay, well, how do you learn to be so vulnerable and so okay with like, hey, there was a time in my life where I had to follow my friends down the hall to go to the bathroom, because I couldn't be alone for that long. How do I admit to that? Like how do I allow that to be my identity and accept that? And so I've had these like various kind of progressions of you get to a place and then you find comfort and you plateau, because it's like, don't rock the boat.
Just don't rock the damn boat. I'm comfortable right now and I'm doing well. And then you realize how hard you're still fighting.
Dr Russ Kennedy (23:57.912)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (24:04.738)
Yeah. But it is a, it is a gradation though. I think that I see a lot of these things, you know, on Instagram and whatever. It's like, you know, we have this rapid hypnosis program, a cure your anxiety in a week. And it's like, it doesn't work that way. Your brain does not unwind. It's like, what I tell people is, is I said, well, what if I said I could teach you how to unlearn how to ride a bike? Like it's just such an implicit program. It's such an automatic implicit program. And also it's, it's coupled.
Kendra Fisher (24:07.924)
Absolutely.
Kendra Fisher (24:15.37)
Mmm.
Kendra Fisher (24:25.644)
Yeah, right. Yep.
Dr Russ Kennedy (24:33.274)
to this feeling of security. If I don't worry, you know, that whole, you know, Dr. Kennedy, I'm frankly, I'm worried when I'm not worrying, right? Like that whole thing, like that whole loop. And it's just this illusion that we get sucked into because in our brains, you know, when we worry, we make the uncertain appear a little more certain and we get a little hit of dopamine in our nucleus accumbens, in our motivation center. It's like, okay, you're on the right track. So even this is the whole basis of, you know, people will pick
Kendra Fisher (24:36.312)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (24:40.268)
Yeah, right. Yep.
Kendra Fisher (24:53.07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Russ Kennedy (25:01.85)
an unfamiliar or a familiar hell to an unfamiliar heaven, right? So we know it and it's like that t-shirt that says I'm in my own little world, but it's okay, they know me here, right? So it is this thing where we get this familiarity and human beings equate familiarity with security. if you had this sort of hypervigilance, because clearly you were born a sensitive child, like clearly. So, you know, we sensitive people,
Kendra Fisher (25:05.055)
absolutely. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (25:11.426)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (25:23.235)
Very much so.
Dr Russ Kennedy (25:28.632)
pick up this anxiety so quickly, even with relatively minor, you know, wounds or, you know, trauma. it, it, it wires us differently. And then we learn coping strategies. And unfortunately, the coping strategies just make it worse. Like initially they make it seem a little better initially in your brain, you get a little hit of dopamine and maybe a little bit of endorphins and enkephalins as well. So we get rewarded for making the uncertain appear certain because
Kendra Fisher (25:30.787)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (25:34.754)
Yep. Yep.
Kendra Fisher (25:39.042)
Yeah, yeah.
Kendra Fisher (25:48.622)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (25:57.272)
what people with anxiety hate the most is uncertainty. really uncertainty is just anxiety intolerance. It's just being able to not tolerate the anxiety. And once you learn how to tolerate it, which it seems like we were talking a little bit before we started today, and it just seems like it's not so much that you're tolerating, it's just like there's a smile on your face. Now it's like, yeah, it's here, the alarm's here, and it's there, and I deal with it. And then we learn, and this is also what we're talking about too, is
Kendra Fisher (26:03.138)
Yeah. Yep.
Kendra Fisher (26:18.478)
Cool. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (26:27.96)
you learn that you can help yourself. You know, because yeah, well that's, but so many of us don't though. So many of us look for this magical other, this magical relationship, this doctor, this book, this program, whatever, this is gonna fix this. It's like, no, no, no. They can give you the building blocks, but you have to decide that you're gonna fix yourself and that you're gonna be able to hold that anxiety, hold that alarm like the younger version of you. Because if you keep rejecting that younger version of you,
Kendra Fisher (26:30.338)
You have to.
Kendra Fisher (26:34.412)
Yep. Yep.
Kendra Fisher (26:42.082)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (26:56.292)
That child is going to scream louder and louder and louder in physiological alarm, which of course your mind reads and the mind has a tactical advantage over you. So it just makes the worries even greater. So you get sucked into this place. So it's really, it's not so much surrender. And I was thinking about that one when you first started talking today, it's just this embracing of it.
Kendra Fisher (27:00.248)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (27:18.444)
Yeah, and it's such a bizarre, it's realization that I've kind of struggled with finding the words for and I find myself trying to tell the story and it's unfamiliar to me, which is beautiful, because what's familiar to me is fighting like hell. What's familiar to me is survival. And what's not familiar to me is peace and ease. And I mean, I feel like it was just this,
Dr Russ Kennedy (27:37.402)
Exactly. Right.
Kendra Fisher (27:47.438)
beautiful combination. I, you know, I'm forever gonna believe I think that maybe this was this was one of dad's last ditch like efforts of parenting. And in everywhere it took me in the realization of losing him and putting me back into that childlike state of like, I'm daddy's girl, like, and he's gone. And I, I for the first time got to a place where I could
I could kind of visit that trauma. I could visit the things that did happen in my youth that I could pinpoint. And I started to recognize, just by chance and great, well, because it was supposed to happen, I ended up with one of my care providers on the team that supported me after my endometriosis surgery.
she does a lot in somatics and she does a lot in, you know, working from the body up instead of the cognitive. I mean, I've done the cognitive, like I've done the cognitive for years and years and years. And absolutely the value is there. But when I started to recognize how well paved those like super highways are in my brain from like my brain straight to every sensation in my body, and how quickly
Dr Russ Kennedy (28:54.607)
Me too.
Kendra Fisher (29:12.78)
that allows my brain to go from a moment to catastrophe is uncanny. And so gratefully by chance, I got introduced to my current physio who is trained in these modalities and trained in kind of the whole physiological pain.
and also the psychology of pain and also kind of the rewiring of the nervous system. And so I've been working in that space and I just got to a point where was like, had this release of like going through a moment of being brought into where my experiences as a child took me.
Dr Russ Kennedy (29:41.912)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (30:02.294)
And I mean, I'll mention it briefly. I know that we've shared this before, but I mean, I had some instances when I was younger where I ended up in the hospital after medical procedures. And because of the day and age, parents weren't allowed in the hospitals. And my memories of that were terrifying. I had a hemorrhage after a tonsil surgery. I remember laying on the floor at the nurse's station, just bawling for my parents and feeling so alone and so scared.
Dr Russ Kennedy (30:05.05)
Sure.
Dr Russ Kennedy (30:16.666)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (30:27.652)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (30:31.95)
And in that moment, clearly, I somehow created the narrative that I'm gonna have to fight for myself to stay alive and I am going to be doing that for the rest of my life. And I grabbed it and I ran with it. I don't know, but I'd love to talk to them.
Dr Russ Kennedy (30:43.566)
know. You know where that policy came from? The whole that parents couldn't visit the children? Okay, I'll tell you. I'll tell you. So yeah, so what happened was, they would find that when the parents came to visit the children, when the parents left, the kids would freak out.
Kendra Fisher (31:03.788)
I, no doubt.
Dr Russ Kennedy (31:03.852)
So what they did was they said, okay, no more parents. So what happens is the kids would go into this dorsal vagal shutdown, like they would just, and the nurses would go, there's so much more better, they're better behaved when the parents aren't allowed in. They're just, but they're, but they're basically in emotional crisis. They're in shock. They're, they're, they're stunned. Right? So, so of course they're more pliable and they're easier to deal with. That's where that whole policy started.
Kendra Fisher (31:08.397)
Mm.
Kendra Fisher (31:12.578)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (31:17.304)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (31:23.288)
shock. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (31:30.634)
Mm-hmm. Well...
Dr Russ Kennedy (31:33.082)
And it caused so many problems and especially for relatively minor surgeries like tonsillectomies and stuff like that because what the people would think is, well, it's just a throat thing, know, they're probably fine. You're a sensitive kid, you you need your parent. And all of a sudden they're going, no, of course, of course.
Kendra Fisher (31:37.123)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (31:50.06)
Yeah. Now I can't breathe and I can't swallow and I feel like I'm choking and I spent a life with emetophobia and like, I had to go to like, I was registered for an exposure therapy program when my first child was about to be born because I knew, and for those of you who don't know emetophobia, I am terrified of puking, vomiting, fear of being around it, seeing it, experiencing it.
Dr Russ Kennedy (32:11.194)
Fear of vomiting for, yeah, yeah. Right.
Kendra Fisher (32:17.14)
very much from that choking feeling. can, I remember when I was a child, like after that and you, it's ingrained, like it's, it's phenomenal, the impact that has. And now that I've worked through it, it's kind of, I mean, I'm intrigued by it, which is maybe odd, but I, I love it because now that I understand it differently, I'm like, okay, okay, that makes sense. And I'm okay. That wasn't my fault.
Dr Russ Kennedy (32:19.086)
Sure.
Dr Russ Kennedy (32:39.342)
Yeah. Well, the central nucleus of the amygdala, basically the cells in the amygdala, the central part of it, are the ones that are responsible for coupling things together. So if you go into a grocery store and you have a panic attack, the central nucleus of the amygdala will say, grocery stores are dangerous, right? But it's also the central nucleus of the amygdala that rewires that whole situation as well. So you've got the fox in charge of the hen house.
Kendra Fisher (32:51.384)
Okay.
Kendra Fisher (32:57.442)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (33:02.914)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Russ Kennedy (33:06.338)
So it just reinforces itself over and over and over again. So it's very interesting to see the neuroscience behind how we couple these negative things together and how, and it's the same basis really of, you know, where were you in 9-11? It's the central nucleus of the amygdala. It locks in whatever you're experiencing in the time because it's evolutionary, right? It's like, okay, well, if you're experiencing this terrible thing, this is a place that you should never go again. Right now it was meant to be
Kendra Fisher (33:09.218)
Yeah, yeah.
Kendra Fisher (33:16.556)
I love it.
Kendra Fisher (33:21.88)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (33:27.532)
Yep.
Kendra Fisher (33:31.65)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Dr Russ Kennedy (33:36.295)
survival based, it winds up just causing a whole bunch of trauma for people, you know.
Kendra Fisher (33:41.666)
Yeah, and it's, mean, as I've learned this, and there's a beauty in this. Like to me, the beauty of that, the absolute thrilling, amazing, deep, heartfelt gratitude I have for this realization is it can be healed. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't do anything wrong. Yep.
Dr Russ Kennedy (34:00.366)
Yeah. And it's not you. That's the thing. Like it's, it's actually neuro neuro biological wiring. It's not some flaw. It's not some weakness, you know, it's not, it's a neurobiologically wired step in your, in your personal psyche. That, that is not your fault. And it's not, and it's not, you know, you can't just fix it by going, well, I'm just not going to be afraid of vomiting. It just doesn't work that way. It just doesn't.
Kendra Fisher (34:18.796)
No.
Kendra Fisher (34:24.81)
No, no. Well, no, for me, I mean, was, power, shout out for exposure therapy. My firstborn had some amazing reflux. And so it was projectile vomiting like 25, 30 times a day. And after the first couple of weeks of having him, I called, it was KMH that I was registered for this phobia program. And I'm like, you know what, give my spot to somebody else.
Dr Russ Kennedy (34:50.49)
It's like, I don't need it. Yeah, yeah.
Kendra Fisher (34:53.75)
And then just to double down on it, I was like, you know what, how about I become a firefighter? How about I go into a profession where it's not uncommon? And yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing how much, and I mean, I've always known this. That one was one that I, I mean, I wasn't thrilled with the options for exposure therapy for that one. But,
Dr Russ Kennedy (35:03.279)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (35:13.882)
Sure. Yeah.
Well, you know what they're coming up with now for exposure therapy in my friend Arash in, I would say his last name, Javan Bach. He works at Wayne State University in Michigan and he's really big on virtual reality, augmented reality. So they put headsets on people. And if you're allergic to spiders, they basically put you on the headset and the headset looks like you're in a room, right? And then there's a tiny spider that goes across the wall and you're like, okay. And then eventually,
Kendra Fisher (35:29.73)
Okay.
I can't even imagine.
Kendra Fisher (35:40.54)
yeah, I mean
Dr Russ Kennedy (35:45.798)
They have bigger and bigger spiders. And it feels like, so you're training the amygdala. It's like, I'm in the presence of this. In the back of my mind, I also know this is not real, but it feels so real that you actually start changing the amygdala again. So that central nucleus of the amygdala changes and says, Hey, this is no longer a threat. So we're actually rewiring it in real time. And I think we're going to like, I get so excited talking to him because it's like, I would love to have.
Kendra Fisher (35:52.002)
Yeah.
You have that, yeah.
it does.
Yep.
Kendra Fisher (36:06.51)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (36:15.202)
an avatar of my younger self, you know, at seven or eight years old, freaked out by my dad, that I could sit in a room and speak with. And it would appear like I'm speaking to Rusty. It would appear like I'm, and it would appear like he is talking back to me. Just the rewiring that, that that would create in your brain. And I think that's where we're going with, with a lot of these new sort of AI type treatments for anxiety. This is one of the things that holds the most promise.
Kendra Fisher (36:17.665)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (36:23.256)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (36:33.546)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (36:40.216)
Yeah.
Well, of course, because it's more tangible. think it's so much easier because I think a lot of the struggle with and, you know, going back to the whole recognizing that you have to show up and participate is a lot of treatment and a lot of what we do to manage anxiety and to manage mental illness. That tangible aspect isn't there. So it's kind of the like, I'm doing all these things, is it really making a difference? And the measurables aren't there. And so it's a lot harder than
Dr Russ Kennedy (36:45.198)
Yeah, it's feeling.
Kendra Fisher (37:12.982)
you know, say I want to gain muscle mass. Okay, now I can see a muscle. So it's, you know, A equals B and it's a lot easier when you have that support for your brain to be able to, to pull from that and use that as evidence. But I mean, for me, this again, like I just, I'm at this place where having started into that whole somatic experience and, really trying to
And with guidance, I mean, I will say that the structure of having the appointment and having somebody who can guide you safely in and out of those moments, my last appointment, I had the greatest release of just everything. And it was shocking to me because I could so viscerally feel it. I could so entirely feel.
Dr Russ Kennedy (37:57.273)
guys.
Dr Russ Kennedy (38:02.606)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (38:08.778)
and address it and felt so connected to that scared little girl. And it was just kind of like, you know what, I've got you. I've got you and we're okay.
Dr Russ Kennedy (38:19.396)
Yeah. And I think, you know, so much of traditional therapy believes that all we need to do is change that thinking structure and anxiety. tell people that it's really a state of alarm in your body. It's a feeling structure and it doesn't, and that feeling structure doesn't speak the language of words, that left hemisphere, linguistic linear language of words. So you can ease it a little bit. And I think that's where we get, we get sort of pulled down the garden path a little bit because I think,
Kendra Fisher (38:26.36)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (38:30.881)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (38:35.842)
No.
Kendra Fisher (38:40.483)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (38:43.949)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (38:47.834)
CBT works, CBT helps. We put people into a program, they score like 80 out of 100 in anxiety, and then when they finish the program, they're at 40. So it's like, well, clearly this works. It does work in the short term. Cognitive strategies do work, but they're not actually affecting the root cause of the problem, which is a feeling basic, which is why I think psychedelics, why I think augmented reality, somatic therapies, to some extent parts work. These are all the things that actually build the foundation.
Kendra Fisher (38:56.268)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (39:17.498)
to get to a better state of feeling because it's really, we're feeling creatures. And there's a part of our brain called the insular cortex and the insular cortex kind of maps onto the body. And I do believe that this alarm that we have is mapped, for me it's mapped out of my solar plexus. And it's like, because it takes, it's so intense that it takes us over completely. And this is the other one of those little things that I wake up with this morning. I think when we do exercise or we get out somewhere,
Kendra Fisher (39:20.076)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (39:39.149)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (39:44.814)
we realize that, there's so much more to my insular cortex, there's so much more to my body than just this intense sensation that we're just unconsciously sort of handcuffed to all the time. So when we feel, there's more to me than this sensation, it kind of, it's like putting drops of red dye in a liter of water. It just diffuses, it's not so intense. So this is why I think the, this is where I think we're gonna heal anxiety.
Kendra Fisher (39:51.628)
Yep. Yep.
Kendra Fisher (40:06.904)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Russ Kennedy (40:12.544)
in the future by treating it as this state of physiological alarm and treating that because I think if you had to treat one of them the thoughts or the feeling, treat the feeling first because that's what's feeding the thoughts. So that was a bit of a rant but...
Kendra Fisher (40:17.506)
Yeah, yeah.
Kendra Fisher (40:24.684)
Yeah, yeah. No, and I, but I agree. And it's, I think that there's, I think that there's absolutely still a ton of benefit to the tools and resources that we utilize to support those feelings because ultimately day-to-day life happens. And you know, there's, there's that ability for ebb and flow and fluctuation or something to catch you off guard. mean, like it's bizarre things sometimes that put me into that state of like, Ooh.
Dr Russ Kennedy (40:37.922)
Absolutely. Cognitive Step 2.
Dr Russ Kennedy (40:43.684)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (40:54.85)
Why am I feeling this? And I don't know that you can be prepared for all of those, but what you can be prepared for is how you react them and how your body responds to it. And it's just this, I, like I had this moment yesterday, I was talking to my physio and I was telling her, you know, I've also, because I have to go all in on everything, I'm like, okay, now I'm healing.
Dr Russ Kennedy (41:20.282)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (41:22.286)
So I'm gonna be the best speaker and now I'm gonna be the best healer. I'm gonna be the best at healing. So it was like, what do I need to heal? Like let me get all of the things in place. And part of it was to go back to and revisit true trauma therapy from a psychological standpoint. And I will say that I had one appointment and it was very valuable to me
Dr Russ Kennedy (41:22.894)
Right? yeah, no, that's your first, I'm to be the best damn healer there is. Like there's no, yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Kendra Fisher (41:52.398)
cognitively because I feel like we did 10 appointments in one just because I am so, yeah, like I am so experienced in CBT and then therapy and that I was able to basically go to a provider and be like, okay, look, here's where I'm at. This is the little piece that I'm looking for some information on. And...
Dr Russ Kennedy (41:58.638)
You had the basis, you had the grounding, yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (42:04.463)
Yep.
Dr Russ Kennedy (42:13.626)
All right.
Kendra Fisher (42:17.43)
You know, just in having that one conversation, it was reframed to me in a way that I hadn't considered before, which was you can rewrite the way you experience what happened as a child. You don't have to continue to tie yourself to that little girl sitting on the floor alone at the nurse's station. You can picture your parents there with you. Like you can, you can invite your parents into that because they weren't not there because they didn't love you and support you and you were alone and they didn't care. They weren't there because they weren't allowed to be.
And so, you know, just that change of thought and because I've practiced that, it was great. But then when it came time for my next appointment, and even though it was a day that I was feeling a lot of grief, I was like, this isn't what I need. This, I don't need to think more about this. I don't need to cognitively, you know, attack this anymore. I can let this be. This doesn't have to be the story that I'm...
This isn't my identity anymore. And it was such a blessing. so it was kind of that whole like, I say I'm healed? Can I, yeah, like, I say that? Am I being cocky here? Like, is this the moment that I say it? And it's like, ha ha, take this. it's, no, like it's just, and I'm not,
Dr Russ Kennedy (43:29.656)
trust this yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (43:38.392)
Yeah, your mind gets you.
Kendra Fisher (43:44.13)
professing that I don't want to continue to learn more from like that whole sensory and feeling place. But I just I'm really at peace. Like I feel really good. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (43:53.594)
Yeah, I feel that with you too, right? Because it's so, this is what true healing is. And we were talking about this a little earlier too, before we hit record, but it is about learning how to do it for yourself and feeling like, okay, I have agency. And because when you were younger, when you were at that nurse station, you didn't have agency, right? But now you show yourself that you actually do. And when you can start healing for yourself and you're not looking for this magical other, like I said,
Kendra Fisher (44:07.01)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (44:22.371)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (44:22.616)
to heal you, you become the agent of like, okay, this hurts, but I'm going to take responsibility for the pain and I can stay with the pain and build some capacity and resilience in my nervous system. And I'm not against, you know, this is the thing, like I do have a little bit of an, well, more than a little bit of a negative view of cognitive therapies, because they didn't help me at all. And I did them for so many years and it was part of my profession, you know, like
Kendra Fisher (44:29.515)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (44:41.996)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (44:47.18)
medicine like that was the gold standard of the anxiety and I'm failing the gold standard of anxiety. So what does that say about me? But I realized that my little you know, hate on for cognitive therapy is misguided in a lot of ways. And really what I wanted to say is that that we need the body part, we need the feeling part, probably first and the cognitive part second, you know, and it's important to have both of those things.
Kendra Fisher (44:47.456)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Kendra Fisher (45:08.554)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (45:15.214)
But unfortunately, what we do in traditional therapy is we lean 90 % onto the cognitive part, which doesn't really work. I mean, it works in the short term. that's my, I want to explain that that's why my negative bias towards cognitive therapy is because it's very effective and very helpful to help you cope for sure. But to heal, you need that sort of feeling perspective of it.
Kendra Fisher (45:21.027)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (45:28.567)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (45:37.484)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (45:42.426)
And I think because I see, I just want to, first of all, because I see traditional therapy lean so heavily into the cognitive and it's like, I want to yell at them. It's like, this is not going to heal you. know, like, like medicine in general, like the, the pill I give you for your reflux isn't going to heal you. It's going to make you feel better, but the problem is still sitting there. So yeah.
Kendra Fisher (45:42.593)
And I
No, no.
Kendra Fisher (46:01.538)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that the truest way that I can depict that with my own personal experience is following this past year, my inability to sit with discomfort was still 100 % intact. Like I could not feel that level of grief and that level of pain and connect myself to any belief that I could survive it.
And it was kind of, I recognized in that moment very clearly how much I had poured into coping strategies that again, I'm so grateful, but also I can only run so far. I can only run so hard. I can only lift so much. I can only do so many charity events and speaking engagements and, and, and.
And at the end of the day, I still had this much tolerance, zero tolerance for the absolute discomfort of that sensation of loneliness and being alone and pain that came with that. losing dad especially, it really forced me to sit with that. And it really forced me into a place of recognizing that like,
Dr Russ Kennedy (47:20.046)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (47:27.67)
as much as I thought and in true Kendra fashion, like I was ready for this with that. I mean, we had years. We had years. I knew it was coming. I was prepared and I was in some senses, like I wholeheartedly am grateful he is no longer suffering. I...
Dr Russ Kennedy (47:35.098)
her. Right.
Dr Russ Kennedy (47:49.796)
Right.
Kendra Fisher (47:50.798)
100 % am grateful for every second I had with him. And I know that I was blessed. There's no doubt whatsoever that I had a wonderful father who I have the absolute blessing of carrying so much grief as a result of having had so much love. Like that's fine. I'm fine with that. But what I wasn't... No, please.
Dr Russ Kennedy (48:14.2)
And I think processing, yeah, just, I think processing grief actually helps you process anxiety as well. think pushing grief away just adds more onto the pile. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (48:20.052)
Absolutely. Yeah. And that was the thing. Like three days after his funeral, I'm having surgery and now I'm laid up for weeks and weeks and I can't run, I can't lift, I can't distract. I don't drink, there's no external comfort available to me. And I had no choice but to feel it. I had no choice but to be really
Dr Russ Kennedy (48:37.134)
Yeah. Man. Right.
Kendra Fisher (48:49.282)
really uncomfortable. And it was the greatest gift I've ever, ever received. And how, I I truly believe that. I truly, truly believe that being in a position where it was like, no, you don't get to pretend that you were ready for this and you're going to be unfazed by the fact that your dad's gone. Because that's not the case.
Dr Russ Kennedy (49:11.192)
Yeah. And I think what happens to our, what's happening to our children now is that there isn't that, there isn't that adversity that they go through, you know? So when you, when you go through adversity, you build capacity and resilience in the new, provided it's repaired. So this is the thing, like, if you look at children who come from families who, who, who have trauma, who have struggle, but they're repaired in that, like the parents or caregivers are good at repairing saying, this is bad, you know,
Kendra Fisher (49:20.726)
No. No.
Kendra Fisher (49:29.078)
Yeah, yeah.
Kendra Fisher (49:34.338)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (49:40.652)
mother died, parents getting divorced. You know, it's repaired in that situation. They unconsciously learned that, yeah, stuff can happen. Bad, bad stuff can happen, but things kind of come back. And, and, but the kids who go through life, who kind of silver spoon kids, a lot of them who have a lot of money and don't get that, that adversity, they wind up being kind of colloquially called snowflakes because they never really had to build that capacity.
Kendra Fisher (49:49.645)
Yeah.
and it can be okay still.
Kendra Fisher (49:57.612)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (50:08.781)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (50:08.92)
Now I wouldn't recommend, you know, people, you know, having your father die and then having to go in for surgery, you know, three days later to anybody. But it is, it is one of those things that the things that we fear the most often are the biggest gifts. And as cliche and Oprah like as that sounds, it really does allow us to, to realize, cause the whole thing between the difference between fear and anxiety, fear is what's happening right now. Like if there's a lion in my face right now, that's fear. But if
Kendra Fisher (50:21.634)
Yeah. Yeah.
It's real.
Kendra Fisher (50:34.156)
I'm scared and that's real.
Dr Russ Kennedy (50:35.492)
But yeah, but if I'm, if I'm thinking, I hope I don't run into a lion on the street tomorrow. That's anxiety. Right. So, so it's the ability to kind of know that when fear comes up, that you will deal with it. And so many people with anxiety are so good at dealing with fear when it comes up, because we have that we've been on this playing field for a long time. Right. So we know what it's like. And then so many people I would see in my practice have to go through like heart attacks, major surgeries, this kind of stuff. And they, they would handle it.
Kendra Fisher (50:39.608)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (50:48.28)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (50:55.31)
We are. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (51:05.434)
So, so, so, so much better than they think they were.
Kendra Fisher (51:09.388)
Yeah, yeah, it's odd what we find as blessing, but I mean, again, there's entire belief systems, you know, that are tied to this and the value of suffering is real. But I just, yeah, I mean, I don't, I, again, like I can just see my dad laughing, because I wouldn't have had the surgery. I would have skipped it if he was still, if he had hung on, I was prepared to move the surgery because I couldn't care for him.
Dr Russ Kennedy (51:34.969)
Right.
Kendra Fisher (51:38.826)
once I had the surgery. I, you know, all worked how it was supposed to and it's been incredible. And further to what you said about, you know, resilience and, you know, I'm fortunate. I think sports are wonderful for building resilience, especially as a goalie. And especially as the only female goalie playing men's hockey up until
Dr Russ Kennedy (51:39.118)
Right. Makes sense.
Dr Russ Kennedy (51:46.937)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (52:00.11)
Yes. Yep. Especially as a goalie. Sure. Right.
Kendra Fisher (52:08.556)
you know, my teens. So I think that there was a lot of that growing up, but there was also a lot of that, that belief in myself that had developed from trauma young that I always had to be able to carry it. I always had to be able to show up and prove that I could do it. And so...
Dr Russ Kennedy (52:19.834)
Mm-hmm.
Kendra Fisher (52:31.442)
That's how I've managed anxiety. I'm gonna show everybody that no matter what, no matter how hard it gets, I can still get up in the morning and I'm proud of that. And I am still and I'm grateful for it. that level of resiliency has really helped me. But I think that what we see a lot nowadays is avoidance is so, so like embraced.
Dr Russ Kennedy (52:37.966)
Right. Right. Yeah. And you should be.
Kendra Fisher (52:58.03)
and to any parent out there, to any person out there struggling. I mean, when you, the second you make that decision to avoid anything or the second you make that decision even more detrimentally for your child, you know, you are, you are paving that super highway between I can't manage and I can't do this. And there are no detours. And that's a really scary place to be in all of a sudden when you're faced with something real.
Dr Russ Kennedy (53:19.288)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (53:26.39)
and when those moments in life do happen, because they'll shut you down. And I was as prepared as I could be in terms of tools and coping strategies. But all of a sudden I got to that realization again that, like even with all of those, if I don't truly understand how to be uncomfortable and recognize that there's not an action for me to take, there's this discomfort and I'm going to have to feel this.
Dr Russ Kennedy (53:52.506)
There's no escape.
Kendra Fisher (53:56.118)
and I'm going to truly have to connect to the fact that that's okay, that I can be safe. This isn't going to kill me. And when I started repeating that, it was kind of like, you know, there was this super highway and then over there, there was this beautiful like country road that I had never traveled on. All of a sudden I could see it and it had been running parallel the entire time.
Dr Russ Kennedy (54:17.016)
Yeah.
The whole time,
Kendra Fisher (54:23.326)
And I just, was so focused on the road ahead of me and being the best at navigating that eight line high, eight lane highway that it didn't even occur to me that I could just go for a nice little country drive and the same things in life are still going to happen. And that's not up to me.
Dr Russ Kennedy (54:31.022)
Right. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (54:41.656)
Yeah. So what's your work now? What do you speak about? What's your work in mental health now?
Kendra Fisher (54:48.15)
Yeah, so I do a lot of one, sharing my lived experience and kind of the journey from, you know, childhood through losing the dream of playing for Team Canada and a lot of the different coping strategies and how I've managed that. I also do a lot right now. So I work corporately. I work as a mental health coach within, with athletes and in the workplace also with first responders.
So I've kind of got that and I'm getting a lot more into the schools again right now just because the crisis we're at and where we're at with youth and adolescents with mental health right now is just, it's heartbreaking and astonishing. And I think given everything that we've been through in the world over the past, you know, five years, I don't think we're going to be seeing an improvement in the foreseeable future.
Dr Russ Kennedy (55:25.274)
Dr Russ Kennedy (55:40.76)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (55:46.004)
And I just, I think that there's.
Dr Russ Kennedy (55:48.09)
But again, I think, you know, not to interrupt, but I think that things do have to hit a crisis point before things change, right? Like that's the thing. It's like the frog in the boiling water, right? Like, you know, the old story, you know, you throw a frog. I don't recommend this. If you're a frog and the story is the metaphor is you throw a frog in boiling water, he jumps out right away. But if you put them in water and you slowly crank up the temperature until it starts to boil, he'll stay there and die. And I think that's kind of, you know, we, we need that crisis point and that kind of thing too, to be able.
Kendra Fisher (55:52.95)
Absolutely. I mean, I'm proof. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (56:06.254)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (56:09.762)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (56:17.55)
to see that we can A, hold the pain. but setting up places for yourself, like setting yourself up the best opportunity you have to deal with it. It's not like we're saying, hey, you know, go to your bed and just wallow in this pain. You know, you need the support. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (56:20.61)
Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (56:25.208)
Certainly. Yeah.
No, no, no. And that's kind of the work I do. I I help people figure out how to create a safe space for themselves to learn where they can connect and what they can connect to to hopefully help them find a way through. And I think that it's so important. I mean, we are a society of people who, whether you like it or not, you're not meant to do it alone.
Dr Russ Kennedy (56:57.976)
Right. Even though the left brain will tell us that, even though that left brain kind of,
Kendra Fisher (56:58.246)
And community and connection. Yeah. Community and connection are so paramount. And we, we are, we have spent too many years kind of glorifying that whole, am stronger on my own. And if I want it done right, I'll do it myself and I'm guilty of it. But at the end of the day, creating places where we can show up in honesty and just be perfectly imperfect is, is kind of my shtick.
Dr Russ Kennedy (57:11.524)
Yeah.
Dr Russ Kennedy (57:17.985)
yeah.
Kendra Fisher (57:27.79)
And I think that we spend so much time in life not recognizing how much we need each other and the value in recognizing we all have a role to play in showing up. Because at the end of the day, I can't tell you a doctor that kept me alive. I can't tell you one practitioner that kept me alive. What kept me alive was, you know, the people who were willing to sit with me in a room that was too scary.
overnight and I just needed, you know, I needed to know why I wasn't alone in that moment. And what kept me alive were the people who instead of, you know, I'm not doing well, so let me lay on my couch for a week at a time and do nothing. It was, you know what, you've got a day. We'll give you a day of grace. But on day two, you're getting off the couch because you know you're not helping yourself. But most importantly, what I share and that I think is so important is
teaching people to be a support as well. Because I think a lot of people would like the opportunity to be supportive, but everybody is so scared of getting it wrong. And what I say to that is, you know what, it's not about having the answers. It's not about fixing me. Nobody could have fixed me. There's not a single person in the world that could have fixed me. But I am going to respond far more to the person who says to me, hey,
Dr Russ Kennedy (58:37.53)
Great point.
Kendra Fisher (58:57.046)
I'm gonna come by and we're gonna go for a walk. I'm gonna respond to that a lot better than I am somebody on the phone saying, I think you need to go for a walk. And I think that that's the difference because directing somebody to go do something further alone, disconnected, feeling like they're in crisis is, it just, doesn't have the same. What we have to give each other is time and presence and showing up and.
Dr Russ Kennedy (59:13.944)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kendra Fisher (59:25.442)
We all have that to give, we just have to recognize it.
Dr Russ Kennedy (59:28.538)
I think that's very true. So Kendra Fisher, how do people find you?
Kendra Fisher (59:32.686)
My website, kendrefisher.com has links to all my socials on like 99.9 % of the socials. I think I'm kfisher30. Instagram for sure, TikTok, my YouTube channel, I believe also have a podcast, Speak Easy with Kendra Fisher, where you can find Dr. Russell Kennedy and another wonderful conversation. But yeah, and otherwise I'm...
Dr Russ Kennedy (59:53.274)
you
Kendra Fisher (59:59.234)
traveling North America and sharing my story and trying to help people set up a better structure to preventatively start working towards stronger mental health and resiliency as opposed to waiting till we're in crisis to figure it out.
Dr Russ Kennedy (01:00:14.104)
Yeah. And there's no better teachers than the ones who've been there. Right. So, and I think that's it. Yep. And me too. And me too. So thank you so much, Kendra. I really appreciate talking with you today.
Kendra Fisher (01:00:17.474)
Well, I've spent a bit of time there.
Kendra Fisher (01:00:26.622)
Absolutely my pleasure. Always lovely.
